The gold shells & gold consumable debate

[Daedal__]

Was reading the mini chat in the forum (conversation about FTR hall of shame) and it made me to come to a conclusion ->
ShiftyShaft is Jewish. (does not shoot gold and dislikes Germans)

Spoiler:

Hope you wont get offended, I usually I do not make this type of jokes, but I just could not ignore how the pieces fall together

[wetlioN]

Was reading the mini chat in the forum (conversation about FTR hall of shame) and it made me to come to a conclusion ->
ShiftyShaft is Jewish. (does not shoot gold and dislikes Germans)

Spoiler:

Hope you wont get offended, I usually I do not make this type of jokes, but I just could not ignore how the pieces fall together

this is how you use minority jokes the right way. i like.

[ShiftyShaft]

Oh, so you noticed my Israel flag on some of my tier 10 tanks?



But ye, I kinda hate Germany for that it has proven to be capable of just anything, as long as it's cruel and idiotic. And for shitloads of other reasons.

[Brati007]

Oh, so you noticed my Israel flag on some of my tier 10 tanks?



But ye, I kinda hate Germany for that it has proven to be capable of just anything, as long as it's cruel and idiotic. And for shitloads of other reasons.

dude pls dont start political stuff like that on a board with powerpuffgirlsimage on top of it, i as a german feel offended by such (wrong) statements.

[Xen]

powerpuff girls are fascist propaganda and next gen nazis

[wetlioN]

powerpuff girls are fascist propaganda and next gen nazis

powerpuff girls are ubersoldiers, thanks to the chemical X

[kihrEx]

powerpuff girls are fascist propaganda and next gen nazis

powerpuff girls are ubersoldiers, thanks to the chemical X

Yet noone can play the great T110E4... call yourself a soldier

[ShiftyShaft]

Oh, so you noticed my Israel flag on some of my tier 10 tanks?



But ye, I kinda hate Germany for that it has proven to be capable of just anything, as long as it's cruel and idiotic. And for shitloads of other reasons.

dude pls dont start political stuff like that on a board with powerpuffgirlsimage on top of it, i as a german feel offended by such (wrong) statements.

Dude, talking about Jews and making minority jokes is political. It's not me who restarted that. I merely reacted. You seem to be ok with political stuff as long as the right people are dissed. But god forbid someone is blaming Germans! Ahmygad, then it's getting damn serious. Am I right? Well, I guess Germans have never been good in remembering what's cause and what's consequence.


But ye, no point in discussing this shit here. So instead I'll just go on dissing whoever I think needs to be dissed just as you guys will go on making funny jokes about Jews, America and mr sexiіs.

[Pfuf]

shifty what is wrong with you going full retard if it comes to germany?

[ShiftyShaft]

Pfuf what is wrong with you going full donkey (calling me retard) when someone has issues with German nationalism? I did not get personal unlike you. But I do have problems with Germans celebrating their country in general. And with certain aspects that are more common among Germans than among others. Like the way they handle criticism.

[Pfuf]

do they celebrate their country? dont mix up nationalism (which i hate too) with patriotism. dont judge all germans if they are one race. you know that we are are county full of different cultures and they people in saxony differs from them in the rhineland which differs from people in berlin. its not enough to say germans cant handle critics, are dumb sheeps and think they are master race. people can be proud of their country and be good humans at the same time. its fine if people are proud of their country if they are staying objective and dont start to look down on other countries. i like germany, its my home country, but i love europe in i am glad that there are still people striving to unite it. but people like you judging that easy and refuse to discuss wont make it better. i would like to hear your problem but i can only take you serious if you are that one sided.

[ShiftyShaft]

Pfuf, I am not sure if it's possible to discuss this in an online forum. I mean discuss it seriously as the topic actually requires. But instead of writing a book here, I'll refer to an essay I find helpful. The following text will be in German since the essays I am referring to are. I apologize for that.

Spoiler:

In a nutshell: Im wesentlichen ist meine Kritik an Deutschland eine Kritik an "deutscher Ideologie". Der Bergfif geht auf Marx/Engels zurück (bitte jetzt nicht glauben, ich wäre Marxist, nur, weil ich denke, dass sie hier etwas Adäquates erkannt haben), indem sie unter anderem konstatieren, dass die deutsche ökonomische und politische Rückständigkeit im 19. Jahrhundert begleitet ist von spezifisch deutschen sozialen und geistesgeschichtlichen Strömungen. Etwa kritisieren sie "Gesinnungsdenken", also ein Denken, das glaubt, Handlungen um ihrer selbst willen ausführen zu müssen. Das steht etwa dem amerikanischen Pragmatismus gegenüber, bei dem Handeln nie Selbstzweck, sondern Mittel-zum-Zweck - etwa der Erfüllung von Bedürfnissen oder der Verfolgung des Glücks - dient. In diesem Zusammenhang würde ich auch die spezifisch deutsche Reformationsbewegung nach Luther einordnen, die (anders als bei Calvin und den Puritanern etwa) etwa Arbeit als Selbstzweck etabliert und Geldverdienen bzw. das Nutzenkalkül verdammt; ich würde argumentieren, dass sich hierin schon einer der zentralen Gründe verbirgt, weshalb sich das Feindbild Jude in Deutschland vehementer und drastischer durchsetzen konnte als sonstwo auf der Welt (der Jude steht dem Antisemiten ja gerade für das Geld und das Nutzenkalkül). Jedenfalls also lassen sich bestimmte Strömungen ausmachen, die in Deutschland (oder etwa den Grenzen des heutigen Deutschland) schon seit langer Zeit dominant sind. Der Begriff der deutschen Ideologie taucht dann im 20. Jahrhundert wieder auf in der Auseinandersetzung mit dem Nationalsozialismus. Und gewissermaßen sehe ich sein Aktualität auch heute noch. Es ist natürlich nicht so, dass ich glaube, alle Deutschen seien so und so... viemehr ist das, wenn ich es so schreibe, eine Polemik, die für gewöhnlich nur jene Menschen trifft, die sich mit Deutschland identifizieren. Und Identifikation greife ich gerade an. Auch die nur scheinbar harmlose des Patrioten:
"Die charakteristische Gestalt absurder Meinung heute ist der Nationalismus. [...] Im Privatleben ist Selbstlob und was ihm ähnelt anrüchig, weil Äußerungen solchen Sinns allzuviel von der Übergewalt des Narzissmus ausplaudern. Je befangener die Individuen in sich selbst sind und je verhängnisvoller sie die Einzelinteressen verfolgen, die in jener Gesinnung sich abbilden und deren sture Gewalt auch wiederum von ihr verstärkt wird, desto sorgfältiger muss eben dieses Prinzip verschweigen, muss unterstellt werden, es gehe, wie der nationalsozialistische Slogan lautete, Gemeinnutz vor Eigennutz. Gerade die Kraft des Tabus über dem individuellen Narzissmus jedoch, dessen Verdränung, verleiht dem Nationalismus die perniziöse Macht. [...] Gesunden Nationalgefühl vom pathischen Nationalismus zu scheiden, ist so ideologisch wie der Glaube an die normale Meinung gegenüber der pathogenen; unaufhaltsam ist die Dynamik des angeblich gesunden Nationalgefühls zum überwertigen, weil die Unwahrheit in der Identifikation der Person mit dem irrationalen Zusammenhang von Natur und Gesellschaft wurzelt, in dem die Person zufällig sich findet." (Adorno: Meinung Wahn Gesellschaft. In: Ebd.: Gesammelte Schriften 10.2., S. 588, f.)


Ich empfehle folgendende Texte:

Es gibt einen Aufsatz aus den 60ern, den ich nach wie vor in seiner Tendenz für aktuell halte. Er umreißt ein wenig das Problem des "deutsch sein", indem er es einerseits natürlich enthypostasiert, die Frage also im Prinzip schon als ungültig entlarvt, aber zugleich im "deutsch sein" einen Sozialcharakter ausmacht mit gewissen - etwa geistesgeschichtlichen - Tendenzen, die heute auch noch gültig sein dürften.
Theodor W. Adorno: Auf die Frage: Was deutsch ist.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/80494321/Ador ... ch-GS-10-2

Einen deutlich aktuelleren, aber weit anspruchsvolleren - weil voraussetzungsvolleren - Text empfehle ich auch noch:
Gruber/Lenhard: "Deutsche Ideologie". Von Stirner zum Poststrukturalismus.
http://www.ca-ira.net/verlag/leseproben ... itung.html

[H311fi5h]

Ironically I share some (maybe even many) of Shifty's political believes. Don't think that changes anything about the gold ammo debate though, I still call bs on that one.

[Xen]

actually, if you compare patriotism in germany to other nations, germans have barely any. You either have the (almost) neo-nazi "deutschland über alles" people or the "I must not say anyhting good about Germany, because people will think I'm a nazi" with nearly nothing in between, while patriotism is the norm in other countries (USA, england, spain, italy, france, russia and basically every other country). Hell, I know more germans who have patriotic feelings for MURICA (although they arent murican) than for germany, lol.

[wetlioN]

tbh germany has a dark history but what the fuck should i still care and be judged about that. right now germany isnt always the eierlegende wollmilchsau in all aspects but still a decent country.

i see so many facebook users with fuck germany and everything, yet they receive a decent healthcare, have free education, get bafög or unenployment benefits and whatnot.

i can relate to some of the aforementioned issues. but overall i cant agree on the hate and grudge against this country.

/stahping political diskashiuns nao

[gigeli]

What the hell is a bafög? It sounds like a sexual practice to me. If I pronounce it in CH-German it's bahföck

[ShiftyShaft]

Don't read the spoiler if you don't wanna get into politics.

Spoiler:

actually, if you compare patriotism in germany to other nations, germans have barely any. You either have the (almost) neo-nazi "deutschland über alles" people or the "I must not say anyhting good about Germany, because people will think I'm a nazi" with nearly nothing in between, while patriotism is the norm in other countries (USA, england, spain, italy, france, russia and basically every other country). Hell, I know more germans who have patriotic feelings for MURICA (although they arent murican) than for germany, lol.

Even if that were true (which I doubt it is), it still would matter what kind of nation and with it what kind of ideas you stand for. Since you mentioned the american nationalism: It stands for completely different ideas than the german one. For example: In social science the american (or the french) nationalism is called "nation of the free will" ("Willensnation" in german) while the german nationalism is called "blood nation" which says a lot about its idea: the american is (at least following its idea!) way more inclusive while the german nation has always been very exclusive. Another good indicator of how liberal nationalism is (if you can call nationalism liberal at all), is the role of the individual person. Is the nation supposed to protect the individual (and therefore allow it to defend itself even against an invasive state - like in America) or is the individual supposed to integrate into the nation in the first place (like it has been in Germany traditionally)? I know that reality nowadays differs from the ideas that founded the nation once but still: the value of individuality and therefore the freedom of the individual is probably way stronger in America than it is in Germany. On a side note: The american weapon laws and the right to possess weapons is directly derived from the priority of the individual over any form of collective force.

But how would you describe the party patrionism nowadays, Xen? I mean I wouldn't argue that nationalism has stayed the same in the last 100 years, but I'd argue that it is still there. It only has changed a lot. And its threads are no longer "Poland and the world is mine"-attitude but a more subtle one.

[H311fi5h]

What the hell is a bafög? It sounds like a sexual practice to me. If I pronounce it in CH-German it's bahföck

It's short for Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz

It basically means students can get money from the state under some conditions.

edit for our non german speaking clanmates: this literally means federal education assistance law

[Brati007]

Don't read the spoiler if you don't wanna get into politics.

Spoiler:

actually, if you compare patriotism in germany to other nations, germans have barely any. You either have the (almost) neo-nazi "deutschland über alles" people or the "I must not say anyhting good about Germany, because people will think I'm a nazi" with nearly nothing in between, while patriotism is the norm in other countries (USA, england, spain, italy, france, russia and basically every other country). Hell, I know more germans who have patriotic feelings for MURICA (although they arent murican) than for germany, lol.

Even if that were true (which I doubt it is), it still would matter what kind of nation and with it what kind of ideas you stand for. Since you mentioned the american nationalism: It stands for completely different ideas than the german one. For example: In social science the american (or the french) nationalism is called "nation of the free will" ("Willensnation" in german) while the german nationalism is called "blood nation" which says a lot about its idea: the american is (at least following its idea!) way more inclusive while the german nation has always been very exclusive. Another good indicator of how liberal nationalism is (if you can call nationalism liberal at all), is the role of the individual person. Is the nation supposed to protect the individual (and therefore allow it to defend itself even against an invasive state - like in America) or is the individual supposed to integrate into the nation in the first place (like it has been in Germany traditionally)? I know that reality nowadays differs from the ideas that founded the nation once but still: the value of individuality and therefore the freedom of the individual is probably way stronger in America than it is in Germany. On a side note: The american weapon laws and the right to possess weapons is directly derived from the priority of the individual over any form of collective force.

But how would you describe the party patrionism nowadays, Xen? I mean I wouldn't argue that nationalism has stayed the same in the last 100 years, but I'd argue that it is still there. It only has changed a lot. And its threads are no longer "Poland and the world is mine"-attitude but a more subtle one.

we live in the 3rd millennium, there is one planet with lot of humans on it and unfortunately there is only a minority understanding that we are all connected, i dont care who you are or where you come from or what your country did 100 years ago, i only care how ppl act and how much worth are their own individual and social values when they are taken into test. humans can be very stupid and there are alot of this type but judging about a complete race/nation without knowing them IS retarded and yes this is my personal opinion ( please dont blame germany for that )

[wetlioN]

Don't read the spoiler if you don't wanna get into politics.

Spoiler:

actually, if you compare patriotism in germany to other nations, germans have barely any. You either have the (almost) neo-nazi "deutschland über alles" people or the "I must not say anyhting good about Germany, because people will think I'm a nazi" with nearly nothing in between, while patriotism is the norm in other countries (USA, england, spain, italy, france, russia and basically every other country). Hell, I know more germans who have patriotic feelings for MURICA (although they arent murican) than for germany, lol.

Even if that were true (which I doubt it is), it still would matter what kind of nation and with it what kind of ideas you stand for. Since you mentioned the american nationalism: It stands for completely different ideas than the german one. For example: In social science the american (or the french) nationalism is called "nation of the free will" ("Willensnation" in german) while the german nationalism is called "blood nation" which says a lot about its idea: the american is (at least following its idea!) way more inclusive while the german nation has always been very exclusive. Another good indicator of how liberal nationalism is (if you can call nationalism liberal at all), is the role of the individual person. Is the nation supposed to protect the individual (and therefore allow it to defend itself even against an invasive state - like in America) or is the individual supposed to integrate into the nation in the first place (like it has been in Germany traditionally)? I know that reality nowadays differs from the ideas that founded the nation once but still: the value of individuality and therefore the freedom of the individual is probably way stronger in America than it is in Germany. On a side note: The american weapon laws and the right to possess weapons is directly derived from the priority of the individual over any form of collective force.

But how would you describe the party patrionism nowadays, Xen? I mean I wouldn't argue that nationalism has stayed the same in the last 100 years, but I'd argue that it is still there. It only has changed a lot. And its threads are no longer "Poland and the world is mine"-attitude but a more subtle one.

we live in the 3rd millennium, there is one planet with lot of humans on it and unfortunately there is only a minority understanding that we are all connected, i dont care who you are or where you come from or what your country did 100 years ago, i only care how ppl act and how much worth are their own individual and social values when they are taken into test. humans can be very stupid and there are alot of this type but judging about a complete race without knowing them IS retarded and yes this is my personal opinion ( please dont blame germany for that )

just blame brati instead